Grenadier - Fusilier

Koen

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Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« on: 24 December 2008, 17:48:14 »

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1. Can someone explain to me the major differences between a grenadier, fusilier & jäger?

2. for the gamers amongst us, what's the difference in Combat Mission between fusilier and grenadier?


« Last Edit: 1 January 2009, 13:01:11 by Koen »	Logged

FACman

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #1 on: 24 December 2008, 18:09:50 »

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Source: Glossary of German Military Terms and Abbreviations by Jason Pipes...http://www.feldgrau.com/glossary.html#G

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Fusilier:
An historic German term often used to refer to heavy infantry units, original refering to the type of weapon carried of the same name. During WWII used to name infantry formations with some recon abilities that replaced an infantry division's recon battalion mid-war when the Germans reduced the number of standard infantry battalions in their divisions from 9 to 6. See also Grenadier.

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Grenadier:
An historic German term often used to refer to heavy infantry units, originally refering to the task and type of weapon carried, in this case hand thrown explosives (now known as grenades). Early in WWII used to refer to certain units to signify their elite status. On 15th October 1942 all German regular infantry regiments were renamed as Grenadier-Regimenter in the hopes of increasing their morale by establishing links to their elite counter-part units of the past. Grenadier was also used later in WWII to refer to the basic level of German soldier in an infantry unit. Instead of simply being a Gefreiter one became a Grenadier. Other resurrected historic terms were Fusilier Jäger and Musketier.

I believe the diff in CM between them is their weaponry, since mission wise, how one uses them IG is not unlike my personal experiences, the situation dictates what you do, with what you've got.

Now, with my opinion and about a dollar, you can buy a cup of coffee, if your lucky and not to picky of its quality. Your mileage may vary.

J


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Koen

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Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #2 on: 24 December 2008, 18:24:34 »

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CMwise: when I want to install a batallion to defend a town end-war period, should I, historically, choose grenadiers or fusiliers?

or

was their a difference in how they were used, defensive or attacking?


« Last Edit: 24 December 2008, 18:31:48 by Koen »	Logged

Enigma

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #3 on: 24 December 2008, 21:04:23 »

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Didnt towards the end of the war the Germans change there TO&E so that there was more automatic weapons (but less bodys) in the infantry squad?

If that premise is correct, i would think that would be ingame Fusiliers over Grenadiers.

Btw, other than probably being a propaganda stunt; what were the Jager units? I know it means hunter but were would the Jager infantry we see in CM fit into the real life infantry battalion/regiment and how were they used?


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stoffel

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #4 on: 24 December 2008, 21:59:11 »

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Jaegers too were old units, their origine dates back to the old reserve style units manned by hunters.
Like any other former units regiments took over the names of such old units to keep up the tradition.


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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #5 on: 24 December 2008, 23:17:06 »

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so the question remains?

what's the difference in realtime?

how were they used?

why, when it's only historical, the choice?


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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #6 on: 25 December 2008, 00:40:47 »

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what's the difference in realtime?

They are not as well equiped trained as regular infantry or panzergrenadiers.

how were they used?

Cannonfodder, like 26th division in Bulge, attacking shoulder to shoulder walking up against a steep hill.
Ad hoc formations, at that time mostly in defense of the reich I guess.

why, when it's only historical, the choice?

I dont know, Propoganda maybe?


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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #7 on: 27 December 2008, 02:01:21 »

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I dont think you can sterotype like that.

The Volksgrenadier divisions to my understanding were old divisions rebuilt around a cadre of exp men with a bunch of new recruits. Not as effective as the previous division but semi ok - also rearragned in such a manner to give each squad more automatic weapons and each battalion more arty assests however on the whole much smaller than previous infantry divisions.

so not just cannonfodder but somewhat untrained and ill experianced to carry out the task that was set of them.


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Vati

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #8 on: 31 December 2008, 13:39:48 »

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One thing is for sure,

The German army fought for its own survival after the debacle of Stalingrad.
This is the main reason why Hitler needed a new "Elite".

The tradition of the Army of the Kaiser were past over to the Reichsheer .
This was accomplished by turning over the traditions of the old regiments of the army of the Kaiser to individual companies of the Reichsheer.
These companies were exceptionally trained in staff methods and would form the cadre of the later regiments of the Wehrmacht.

As for practical purposes, the Grenadier companies were all infantry while the fusilier companies, being the infantry divisions reconnaissance assets were all bicycle mounted.
As the war progressed these TO&E become more blurred as Grenadier companies got bicycles to.

One of the best known stories is a German soldier, nowadays known as Germany's Rambo.
He fired a few shots to disappear, leaving a bicycle tire trail, in the snow of the Ardennes.

It doesn't really make a difference for a game of CM.
The soldiers had to get of their bikes to fight anyway.

It would be a nice addition though.
A scenario of Kampfgruppe Meyer on june the 6 would become possible.

Then again, does anyone play CMBO anymore?

(information provided is my own interpetrations of facts, i don't have the time to check for falts so human error is possible)


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Mad Russian

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #9 on: 31 December 2008, 19:01:58 »

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It seems that Fusilier Battalions were a part of both 1944 Infantry Divisions and also Volksgrenadier Divisions.

A Grenadier Battalion in a 1944 Infantry Division had:
16 - Officers
105 - NCO's
548 - Enlisted Men
458 - Rifles/Carbines
116 - Pistols
111 - Submachine Guns
35 - Light Machineguns
8 - Heavy Machineguns
4 - 81mm Mortars
2 - 120mm Mortars (this is actually 8 mortars divided between 3 battalions for support and they were rarely assigned directly)
12 - Panzerschreck (bazookas)
1 - 75mm Antitank gun towed (this is actually 3 antitank guns divided between 3 battalions for support.They would be assigned directly as needed)
2 - 75mm Infantry Howitzers
1 - 150mm Infantry Howitzer (this is actually 2 Infantry Howitzers to be used to directly support 3 battalions. They would be assigned directly as needed.)
15 - Motor vehicles
6 - Motorcyles
80 - Horse drawn vehicles
165 - Horses

A Fusilier Battalion in a 1944 Infantry Division had:
15 - Officers
113 - NCO's
580 - Enlisted Men
477 - Rifles/Carbines
122 - Pistols
127 - Submachine Guns
43 - Light Machineguns
12 - Heavy Machineguns
6 - 81mm Mortars
4 - 120mm Mortars
8 - Motor vehicles
5 Motorcyles
102 - Horse drawn vehicles
165 - Horses

A Grenadier Battalion in a Volksgrenadier Division had:
15 - Officers
113 - NCO's
580 - Enlisted Men
477 - Rifles/Carbines
122 - Pistols
127 - Submachine Guns
43 - Light Machineguns
12 - Heavy Machineguns
6 - 81mm Mortars
4 - 120mm Mortars (this is actually 8 mortars divided between 3 battalions for support and they were rarely assigned directly)
24 - Panzerschrecks (bazookas)
4 - 75mm Infantry Howizters
3 - Motor vehicles
3 - Motorcyles
73 - Horse drawn vehicles
143 - Horses
33 - Bycycles

A Fusilier Company in a Volksgrenadier Division had:
3 - Officers
28 - NCO's
169 - Enlisted Men
89 - Rifles/Carbines
26 - Pistols
84 - Submachine Guns
8 - Light Machineguns
2 - Heavy Machineguns
2 - 81mm Mortars
2 - 75mm Infantry Howitzers
1 Motorcyles
19 - Horse drawn vehicles
56 - Horses
166 - Bycycles

As you can see, the Fusilier Battalions/Companies were more heavily armed with light infantry weapons. Often having more SMG, LMG and HMG units than the normal Infantry/Grenadier equivalents. But they were also more lightly armed with the heavier firepower of mortars and infantry guns, often not having those assets available at all. They were lighter and intended to be able to move quickly. As such they were often used as fire brigade units to reinforce threatened areas. They would be most often seen in the counterattack role or in areas that were the most important operationally for either the Regiment or the Division.

These units are triangular, so if you need smaller units divide by 3 and lose any fractions. Do not round up.

This information was taken from the first major source I pulled off the shelf. "U.S. Department Handbook on German Military Forces". For this comparison it is accurate enough.

Good Hunting.

MR


« Last Edit: 1 January 2009, 05:11:50 by Mad Russian »	Logged

Vati

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #10 on: 1 January 2009, 02:22:29 »

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Without getting into details.......

Jäger-units were light infantry formation of the 12 Welle (draft).

These units were intended for area's which were neither suitable for infantry formation nor for specialysed mountain formations.

The main difference was that these formations only contained 2 regiments of 3 batallions each.
Support weapon units were also smaller since they only had to support 2 regiments.

(information provided is my own interpetrations of facts, i don't have the time to check for falts so human error is possible)


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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #11 on: 1 January 2009, 02:46:38 »

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Please be carefull with listings of OOB.

They only give you information about "what should have been" and certainly not of "what the reality was".

Websites like Feldgrau are hardly relyable sources of information.

What should have been; compleet listing.....

German Grenadier Battalion, June 1944

Numbers in parenthesis indicate number of personnel assigned to role, number of unallocated weapons or number of sub-units in detachment.

Battalion Headquarters
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Battalion Commander   Officer   MP40, pistol   Horse
Adjutant     Officer   MP40, pistol   Horse
Ordnance Officer   Officer   MP40, pistol
Medical Officer   Officer   Pistol
Message Leader   NCO   MP40
Combat Artist   NCO   Rifle
Medic     NCO   Pistol   Bicycle
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle   Bicycle
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle   Horse
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle   Motorcycle
Horse holder   Private   Rifle
Driver     Private   Rifle   Light field car

Signals Platoon
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Platoon Commander   NCO   MP40, pistol
Horse Leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Cable Section

Section Leader   NCO   MP40
Telephonist (3)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Cable Section

Telephonist (2)   Private   MP40
Telephonist (6)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Pack Radio Section

Section Leader   NCO   MP40
Signaller (3)   Private   MP40
Signaller (4)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Battalion Train
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Quartermaster   Civil Servant Pistol   Bicycle
Weapons Officer   Civil Servant Pistol   Bicycle
Train Leader   NCO   MP40   Horse
Battalion Clerk   NCO   Pistol
Field Cook     NCO   Rifle
Equipment Leader   NCO   Rifle
Pay Clerk     NCO   Rifle
Smith     NCO   Rifle   Bicycle
Clerk     Private   Rifle, MG34/42
Gunsmith (2)   Private   Rifle
Blacksmith     Private   Rifle
Field Cook     Private   Rifle
Saddler     Private   Rifle
Shoemaker   Private   Rifle
Tailor     Private   Rifle
Position maker (?)   Private   Rifle
Wagon leader (2)   Private   Rifle
Wagon driver (12)   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon
Assistant driver (4)   Private   Rifle

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grenadier Company(3)

Company Headquarters

Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Company Commander    Officer   MP40, pistol   Horse
Company Troop Leader   NCO   MP40
Combat Vehicle Leader   NCO   MP40
Medic     NCO   Pistol   Bicycle
Messenger    Private   Rifle   Bicycle
Messenger (2)     Private   Rifle
Signaller (4)     Private   Rifle
Horse leader *     Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Notes
* served as 'Groom' for Officer's horse

Heavy Machine Gun Section
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Section Leader   NCO   MP40
Messenger    Private   Rifle
Gunsmith     Private   Rifle
Wagon driver   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon

HMG Squad (2) each

Squad Leader   NCO   MP40
Machine Gunner   Private   Pistol, MG34/42
Assistant Gunner   Private   Pistol
Rifleman (3)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Rifle Platoon (3), each
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Platoon HQ

Platoon Commander    * see note   MP40, pistol
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle
Stretcher Bearer   Private   Pistol
Wagon driver   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon & trailer
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Rifle Squad (3) each

Squad Leader   NCO   MP40
Rifleman (5)   Private   Rifle
Rifleman   Private   MP40
Machine Gunner   Private   Pistol, MG34/42
Assistant Gunner   Private   Rifle

Notes
* 1st Platoon commanded by Officer, 2nd and 3rd Platoons each commanded by NCO
Platoon Weapons;
single MG34/42 light machine gun carried in reserve

Company Train
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Train Leader Hautpfeldwebel   Pistol   Bicycle
Equipment NCO   NCO   MP40
Field Cook   NCO   Rifle
Pay Clerk   NCO   Rifle
Company Clerk   Private   Rifle, MG34/42
Gunsmith     Private   Rifle
Shoemaker   Private   Rifle
Tailor     Private   Rifle
Field Cook     Private   Rifle   Horse (4), wagon & trailer
Wagon driver   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon & trailer
Wagon driver (3)   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heavy Company

Company Headquarters
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Company Commander   Officer   MP40, pistol   Horse
Company Troop Leader NCO   MP40
Medic     NCO   Pistol   Bicycle
Messenger     Private   Rifle   Motorcycle
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle   Horse
Signals Leader   NCO   Rifle
Signaller (3)   Private   Rifle
Telephone Leader   NCO   MP40
Assistant Leader   Private   MP40
Telephonist (6)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader (2)   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Heavy Machine Gun Platoon
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Platoon HQ

Platoon Commander   Officer   MP40, pistol   Horse
Messenger (3)   Private   Rifle
Range Taker   Private   Pistol
Gunsmith     Private   Rifle
Stretcher Bearer   Private   Pistol
Horse holder *   Private   Rifle
Wagon driver (2)   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon

HMG Section (3) each

Section Leader   NCO   MP40

HMG Squad (2) each

Squad Leader   NCO   MP40
Machine Gunner   Private   Pistol, MG34/42
Assistant Gunner   Private   Pistol
Rifleman (3)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

Notes
* served as 'Groom' for Officer's horse

8cm Mortar Platoon
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Platoon HQ

Platoon Commander   NCO   MP40, pistol   Horse
Messenger (3)   Private   Rifle
Signaller (6)   Private   Rifle
Gunsmith   Private   Rifle
Stretcher Bearer   Private   Pistol

Mortar Section (3) each

Section Leader   NCO   MP40
Direction Finder   NCO   Pistol
Position Leader   NCO   MP40
Wagon driver   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon

Mortar Squad (2) each

Mortar Gunner   Private   Pistol, 8cm mortar
Assistant Gunner (2)   Private   Pistol
Rifleman (2)   Private   Rifle
Horse leader (2)   Private   Rifle   Horse, cart & trailer

12cm Mortar Platoon (motorised)
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Platoon HQ

Platoon Commander   Officer   MP40, pistol
Direction Finder I   NCO   Pistol
Position Leader   NCO   MP40
Direction Finder II   Private   Rifle
Range Finder   Private   Pistol
Messenger    Private   Rifle
Messenger (2)   Private   Rifle   Motorcycle
Signaller (3)   Private   Rifle
Gunsmith     Private   Rifle
Driver     Private   Rifle   Light field car
Driver     Private   Rifle   Light truck
Telephone Leader   NCO   MP40
Telephonist (3)   Private   Rifle
Driver     Private   Rifle   RSO *

Mortar Squad (4) each

Squad Leader   NCO   MP40
Mortar Gunner   Private   Rifle, 12cm mortar
Rifleman (4)   Private   Rifle **
Driver     Private   Rifle   RSO *

Notes
* RSO - Raupenschlepper Ost (a tracked heavy lorry)
** one riflemen in the 1st and 3rd Squad armed with pistol and light machine gun instead of rifle

Company Train
Unit     Rank   Weapon   Vehicle

Train Leader Hautpfeldwebel   Pistol   Horse
Weapons NCO (Armourer) NCO   Pistol
Equipment NCO   NCO   MP40
Smith     NCO   Pistol   Bicycle
Fodder Master   NCO   MP40   Horse
Field Cook     NCO   Rifle
Pay Clerk     NCO   Rifle
Company Clerk   Private   Rifle, MG34/42
Blacksmith     Private   Rifle
Saddler     Private   Rifle
Field Cook     Private   Rifle   Horse (4), wagon & trailer
Supply     Private   Pistol
Wagon driver (5)   Private   Rifle   Horse (2), wagon

Used sources;

kriegsstarkenachweisung

Nr 111n - 1/12/43
Nr 131n - 1/5/44
Nr 151n - 1/5/44

Hmmm, it looked nice when i worked on it.
Once placed the picture becomes somewhat blurred.......


« Last Edit: 1 January 2009, 03:12:47 by Vati »	Logged

Mad Russian

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #12 on: 1 January 2009, 05:03:47 »

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Quote from: Vati on 1 January 2009, 02:46:38

Well, TO&E's, which are what we are listing here, are only for the authorized strength of the units in question. They were rarely, if ever, achieved in any army. To get the reality of "what was" would require knowing the actual unit in question and the exact date in question. Since this was a general question the TO&E's were quoted generally.

Since, the question was, what did they have? To answer that, IMO, you need to show what was intended. To me that means showing the TO&E strengths as the Germans intended the unit to look.

I'm sure if you consider Feldgrau to be unreliable as a resource that you will post the more accurate information here for everybody to have access to. We will all appreciate that.

Good Hunting.

MR


« Last Edit: 1 January 2009, 05:13:39 by Mad Russian »	Logged

Koen

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier

« Reply #13 on: 1 January 2009, 12:59:26 »

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Quote

Jäger-units were light infantry formation of the 12 Welle (draft).

was wondering wat 'welle' ment so I googled and came up with:

12th draft
1940

do you have more info on the 'welle' system etc?

Quote

you will post the more accurate information here for everybody to have access to. We will all appreciate that.

I confirm, looking forward to your input...when you can't find the right location you can ask Steve or myself.

thx

K


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Vati

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #14 on: 1 January 2009, 15:32:56 »

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As I already stated in PM; most of the information provided are originally in either German or Dutch language.

Some of the information provided is translated from German documentary on personal account.

For Kriegstarkenachweisungen, this seems a nice website to me although i can not confirm all information provided.

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

As stated in the listing above the following documents are used;

Stab eines Infanteriebataillons (n.A.), Nr 111n, datum 01.12.943
Schutzenkompanie (n.A.), Nr 131n, datum 01.05.44
Schwere Kompanie eines Infanteriebataillons (n.A.), Nr 151n, datum 01.05.44


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Vati

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #15 on: 1 January 2009, 15:50:42 »

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Considering that the german language is not a problem......

This website is interresting enough to go through although it is known to contain faults.

http://www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de/

As for the Welle (waves) Draft system.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/Heer/Gliederung.htm


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Koen

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #16 on: 1 January 2009, 20:53:37 »

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Quote from: Vati on 1 January 2009, 15:50:42

thank you...German is for me an 80% thingie...most I get..the rest I have to look up Grijns

when people need translations we'll provide it!


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Vati

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #17 on: 4 January 2009, 17:28:44 »

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Another interesting site...

In plain English this one...

http://www.dererstezug.com/


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Koen

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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #18 on: 4 January 2009, 17:34:08 »

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Quote from: Vati on 4 January 2009, 17:28:44

Another interesting site...

In plain English this one...

http://www.dererstezug.com/

thx

you can post your links here: WWII on the net


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Re: Grenadier - Fusilier - Jäger

« Reply #19 on: 13 January 2009, 16:30:54 »

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Of course the British also had and continue to have both Fusiliers and Grenadiers. Just to complicate things a bit and get off the German centricness of the conversation.


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