read more... http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1 (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1)

BBC News - Israeli navy storms Gaza aid ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm#id10190000/10195900/10195997)

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/05/the_netherlands_shocked_by_gaz.php (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/05/the_netherlands_shocked_by_gaz.php)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CUN20100531&articleId=19438 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CUN20100531&articleId=19438)
http://www.thelocal.se/26940/20100531/ (http://www.thelocal.se/26940/20100531/)

9 citizens of the world dead, 0 Israelis dead. I miss the sense of proportionality here. The Israelis say they were under such dire circumstances as to require deadly force yet they only suffered one serious casualty. Not to mention that the Israelis precipitated the violence by storming the ship while in international waters. It would seem the people on the boats do not have the right to defend themselves against piracy, or that is what Israel would have the world think. This stinks to high heaven.

Putting on my best "diplomatic" hat here I think I will go with a "lets wait and get some facts" response, the incident is less than a day old and we all know how inaccurate the first reports of anything are.

Over the next week or so we will hear the Israeli side of things and I have no doubt it will paint a picture of impending "Arab terrorism" and we will hear the Palestinian view which will be of Israeli genocide I personally have little desire to believe either of them.
 
However if when the dust settles this is what it appears then I agree with you 100% and Israel should be punished even if it means freezing assets out side the country to cover reparations.

Have you seen the footage already released?
Those peacefull people on board had all kinds of home made weapons on board.
Molotov coktails, sharpened metal poles, large catapults, improved explosives.

The ship was ordered to go to the nearest Israeli harbor but rejected that order.
We all know that if you deny such an order you can expoect soldiers to visit you.
Normal behaviour is to speak to the captain, in this case the people on board used violence against the soldiers.
Trust me if I board a ship and guys came at me with metal poles, firebombs and other stuff with no other meaning than to kill me, I make sure they die for their cause first.

Yes, I have seen the footage, and since we dont know when the footage was shot, we still dont know the sequence of events. Regardless, the Israeli's precipitated the deaths by illegally boarding a ship in international waters. No amount of apologizing or rationalizing will change the facts that the Israeli IDF forces were acting illegally. The arrogance of the Israeli govt in this instant is outrageous and deserving of worldwide condemnation.

To think that the Israelis were going to take these ships without incident belies the intelligence and intent of those sending the ships. Israel has played right into their hands with their heavy handed ways. This is political theater in its most primal form. Hamas might well have written the script for this. I for one, would defend the ship against such an attack as well, and would be within my legal rights to do so as long as we are in international waters. The laws of the sea are not superseded by Israeli wishes. Had they been Somalis taking the ship, they would be considered pirates. What gives the Israelis the right to ignore international law? Answer: Israeli arrogance.

As for what you would do Henk, you have the duty as a soldier to disobey an unlawful order, as should have the Israeli IDF members who participated.



So, when the Israelis dictate orders to the rest of the world, we must all obey their commands?



I only expect to have have such soldiers respect international law, failure to do so could be a 'War Crime'.

To top it off, I will point out once again, the only ones to die were non-Israeli, makes it hard to believe the IDF forces were in life threatening position.

If the ship was merely sending humanitarian aid, there are ports where such aid is accepted. (It must be cleared since Israel has been attacked by rockets in the past; rockets which appeared in Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid.)  15,000 tons of aid is processed each week this way. 
Shame on Insani Yardim Vakfi and the Free Gaza Movement for using hundreds of innoncents as pawns in this game. I agree that these groups were counting on Israel to react; they were hoping for more dead--it's their modus operandi. 

And where or who gave the Israeli Govt the mandate to dictate to the rest of the world how they interact with Israel's neighbors? As for using hundreds of innocents to further their aims, who's to say most of those folks weren't aware, nor expected this result? Seems like they are activists of one form or another and knowing Israel's propensity for acting aggressively, nothing happened here that wasn't foreseen.

While I understand the pressures Israel faces in light of their neighbors animosity, Israel has not helped their case on the world stage. Their continued failure to abide by the UN Charter, that they signed, makes them an outlaw nation, free to continue their ways, only because the US continues to defend the indefensable.

1) What part do International waters play in your argument, the last position I saw had them roughly 80 miles in International waters when the blockade only extends 20-25 miles beyond coast.

2) If you believe armed men boarding ships in International waters is perfectly acceptable how do you feel about Somali pirates and do you think that the crew of the Maersk Alabama should be charged with resisting their take over?

Personally I find this act at best incredibly stupid, to attack a flotilla 80 miles out in International waters who's mission was primarily humanitarian when doing so was guaranteed to cause international outrage (which was the flotilla's secondary role) when it originated from probably the only friendly Israel friendly nation in the Muslim world and while the ships were packed with international journalists and politicians is just amazingly retarded.

Nah, just arrogant.

Israel is a nation sowing the seeds of its own demise.

While I am not going to disagree with any of that I personally don't think we should be enthusiastic about that outcome.

I am sure Rattler will attest that I am not a huge fan of Israel but I do believe there has to be a political solution to the mess that is the middle east that is acceptable to the moderates of both sides the problem is that it is going to involve Israel giving up a lot more than a few random chunks of unproductive dirt and the Palestinians accepting that they are not going to get everything they want.

Unfortunately I have a nasty feeling that no settlement will be reached until both sides have been beaten into the ground and they have no options left which is somewhat of a shame as it means a lot more people on both sides will have to die for essentially nothing.
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I think this is the biggest mistake the Israelis have made in all of this....

Turkey demands Israel be ‘punished’ over Gaza raid
Philippe Naughton and Judith Evans
Turkey demanded today that Israel be punished for yesterday’s bungled commando raid on a flotilla of ships taking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

The Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who interrupted a trip to Chile after the killings, told MPs from his ruling Justice and Development Party that “dry statements of condemnation” were not enough and Turkey demanded “results”.

“The insolent, irresponsible and impudent attack by Israel, which went against law and trampled human honour underfoot, must definitely be punished,” Mr Erdogan said.

“Nobody should test Turkey’s patience. Turkey’s enmity is as violent as its friendship is valuable. Losing Turkey’s friendship is a cost all on its own.”

Up to 40 Britons were on board the flotilla of ships, the Foreign Secretary said today, as eye-witnesses spoke of being beaten and shot at with rubber bullets during the raid.

At least nine activists, most of them Turks, were killed and one Briton injured in the pre-dawn raid in international waters, when Israeli commandos rapelled from helicopters on to the fleet of ships.

The first activists to be released claimed today that the soldiers had beaten passengers and used electric shocks to subdue them, but Israeli officials insisted that they had opened fire only after coming under attack from activists on the lead vessel, the Mavi Marmara.

William Hague said that "as far as we can tell" there were 31 British passengers and 11 British passport holders taking part in the aid mission when it came under attack.

"They have been detained, they are in a prison in southern Israel," Mr Hague said. "We expect them to be deported very quickly."

One of the British nationals has already been deported, he said, but added that others may not have identified themselves or destroyed their documents making it difficult to be precise about numbers.

British consular officials were meeting with those in detention and working hard to make sure they had "proper access" to their families, he added.

It was confirmed earlier that one Briton, Ahsan Shamruk, was injured in the attack and had received medical treatment.

Paveen Yaqub, 39, is among the Britons being held. She is a council worker from Huddersfield and was on board Mavi Marmara, the lead boat in the flotilla.

The last message Ms Yaqub wrote on her Facebook yesterday began: “Something has kicked off; I gotta run up deck.” Minutes later she added: “We are now surrounded by Israeli warships with helicopters circulating and following the convoy of ships heading for Gaza still. “We will not be stopping unless we are forcibly made to do so.”

Noreen Sheikh-Latif, a friend from Slaithwaite, said she was “extremely worried" about Ms Yaqub whom she regarded “as a sister”. She told the Liverpool Daily Post: “We were in contact with Paveen until two or three hours before the boat went under siege and nobody has heard from her since."

After 12 hours of negotiations that stretched into the early hours, the UN Security Council issued a statement demanding an “impartial” investigation of the deaths and condemning the “acts” that led to it.

Thanks to blocking action from the Americans, Israel’s closest ally, the presidential statement was notably weaker, however, than that drafted by Turkey, the Palestinians and Arab states, which had called for condemnation “in the strongest terms” and an independent international inquiry.

The pro-Palestinian groups which organised the flotilla said that they would send more ships with humanitarian supplies for the besieged Gaza Strip, but Israel warned it will halt any new bid to breach its blockade of the Hamas-run territory.

The crisis has provided Britain’s coalition Government with its first foreign policy challenge. Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, called on Israel today to lift its “unjustifiable and untenable” blockade of the Gaza Strip.

“Whilst, of course, Israel has every right to defend itself and its citizens from any attack, it must now move towards lifting the blockade in Gaza as soon as possible,” he said.

Downing Street said that David Cameron had spoken by telephone to Binyamin Netanyahu to deplore the heavy loss of life and to urge him to ensure there was no repeat of yesterday’s events.

There was further confirmation of the attacks from President Medvedev of Russia, who said that the loss of lives was “absolutely unjustified,” while the European Union President Herman Van Rompuy called the events “inexplicable”.

Israel is still holding hundreds of activists detained in the raid but the first few deported said that the Israeli commandos had beaten passengers and used electric shocks during the assault.

Nilufer Cetin, a Turkish activists who hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi Marmara, told reporters she believed there were 11 dead.

“The ship turned into a lake of blood,” Mr Cetin told reporters in Istanbul after Israeli officials decided to deport her and her child.

She said Israeli vessels “harassed” the flotilla for two hours on Sunday night and then returned at around 4am yesterday, firing warning shots and telling the ships to turn back.

“When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course the harassment turned into an attack. They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend onto the ship with helicopters,” she said, calling the clashes that then erupted “extremely bad and brutal.”

“I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child,” she told reporters, but “they confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone.” Her husband - the ship’s engineer - was still being held by Israeli authorities.

Some 400 Turkish activists were on the six-ship flotilla, along with more than 30 Greeks and people of some 20 other nations including Germany, the United States and Russia. It had been trying to break the three-year blockade of Gaza imposed by Israel after the Hamas takeover.

“Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat,” said Dimitris Gielalis who had been aboard the Sfendoni and was one of six Greek activists returned home this morning.

“They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used,” he said.

He said the boat’s captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye,” he said. “Of course we weren’t prepared for a situation of war.”

The returning Greeks said those still in custody were refusing to sign papers demanded by Israeli authorities.

“During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us,” said Aris Papadokostopoulos, who was aboard the Free Mediterranean traveling behind the Turkish ship and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141783.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141783.ece)

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We have to expect that the USA will brush this aside with the usual "we regret loss of life, but Israel can get away with anything as they have a huge lobby" comments but this action has made it almost impossible for any European government as well as the Turkish government to simply gloss over it with political spin, when you add to this the continuing fall out over Israeli use of European and Australian passports in the assassination of a Hamas leader in Dubai a few months back it is becoming very difficult for anyone to blindly accept Israeli actions on good faith anymore, they are gradually turning themselves into an international pariah through stupid and unwarranted actions.

Just some food for thought, what if Iran had done this instead of Israel?

I have waited one day to gather sensible information in detail before I responded, here is my take:

As this is going to be a *very* long post (I think the incident deserves a detailed analysis) and there might be people here that do not have the time or the concentration span to read it in detail, I will do it the other way round as usually: Where I normally (in the sense of true discourse) first present facts, than analyze to get them into a reasonable order and last sum it up in a paragraph or so, I will for once start out with a summary, then comment, and finally lay out my reasoning in detail, I hope this is ok for you guys.

Inspired by a graphic I saw somewhere, here my first summary in a cartoon:

(http://www.warandtactics.com/Images/moses_final.jpg)

From my POV it could also be depicted like this (also not my idea, but I like it):

(http://www.warandtactics.com/Images/shark_final.jpg)

I am fed up with the Israeli politicians and their arrogance, malevolence, egoism, corruption and their state terrorism that they apply without remorse to try and get what they (as persons: Cash!) want:

Yesterdays attack on the 6 ships was illegal and absolutely desproportionate, indeed more appropriate for pirates than for a state that respects International Law.

It ws illegal, because indeed it took place in international waters over which Israel has no jurisdiction at all, however much the "Liberty Flotilla" might have been directed at Gaza. While it indeed seems to be the fact that the Isareli forces advised the flotilla some hours before that they would be boarded and that the mere existence of the flotilla and its stated intents might be considered a provocation as they did not change course as ordered to this does not in any way give Israel the right to board a group of boats with a stated (or even a pretexted) humanitarian mission.

It was desproportionate, because professionally trained commandos attacked with live fire basically unarmed people, however much those - absolutely legally under the circumstances - intended to defend themselves with steel rods, chairs and kitchen knives and left (last numbers) 19 civilians killed and more than 60 wounded.

The EU took the same stance as their foreign ministers consensed on a communique (a rare fact all by itself !) in which they addressed the action in plain words as "a massacre". The Spanish government called in the Israeli ambassador who defended the action in a very arrogant way in Spaanish TV ("Desproportionate? There were 600 people on board and only 10 died, I call this proportionate by all rights"), and the UN spokesman in Gaza called the attack an "collective international crime" (though the UN today did not condemn the attack in the end).

Of cause, and as was to be expected in the first moment, the Israeli government alleged that there were weapons on board, Al Quaeda terrorists that would have infiltrated into Gaza and that the organized resistance of the passengers was all by itself a terrorist act. Nothing of this comes even slightly close to reality as far as we know today, for example the three Spanish journalists on board clearly state the opposite, the true reasons why Israael opted for this attack are obvious: As the ambassador in Spain in the already mentioned interview stated about the stance of his government it sums up to - in his words -  "If we let one ship deliver humanitarian aid, 100 more will come".

From my POV Israel has every right to exist as a state in secure frontiers and to defend this right against attacks from militant groups as Hamas, but to punish all people in Gaza (the majority just wants to work and eat and have no political goals whatsoever) by a blockade and then attack illegally suspected blockade brakers cannot be accepted as measures of self defense against the enemy under any aspect of international law.

Yesterdays attack is a small scale reproduction of the over excessive and desproportionate use of force that Israel has developed as a consciously layouted pattern ("dont mess with us, you will get hurt") and already showed in the attacks on Lebanon 2006 and the gaza incursion/bombings 2008, in both cases there also the devastation created was plain overkill compared to the - legitimate! - objective of defending itself against Hamas or Hizbola.

The most immidiate consequence of this pirate attack - and I believe this was the real intent: Lives do not count at that operational stage (mission accompished, incl. an "Atta Boys" for the involved commandos) - will be the momentary end of all current hopes to reach a negotiated peace in the region that were created by Obama taking the seat of POTUS, because Nehatyanu has made it clear (again) that he will not make any concession (and Obama/Clinton *should* reallly feel offended).

Next notable consequence is that Israel just lost his strongest, closest and only muslim allie, Turkey, as can be seen by a previously unthinkable comment of a Turkish Prime Minister, who openly and plainly dubbed the attack on the (Turkish flagged!) ship as "State Terrorism". I wonder myself whether the Turks will call in NATO(?), which they could by all right out of the treaty. This would  be a seriously interesting twist, check out the NATO charter wording (excerpt, highlighting by me), this might have serious political consequences above the mere incident as to NATO treaty allowances and interpretations (S-11 made it clear that NATO responded to the US, will they respond to Turkey should the ask?):



Actually this reads for me that yesterday all 28 NATO members + their associates were attacked (Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/NATO_Partners.png/400px-NATO_Partners.png)

Did the Israelis think about that (if I can, they should be able to do so also, methinks)? If yes and they went on, this cannot be interpreted other as a seriously arrogant provocation to test their limits (actually playing the card that NATO will not blow up over some 20- civilian deaths), if not, then they are not only arrogant but also incompetent as politicians (which is actually a hunch I have: I have stated before my belief that with the corruption over there - I bet Mr. N. makes some 50 millions a year from the commissions of the weapons deals - it is all about the money and to keep the kettle brewing to guarantee the income... Fuck the world opinion, civilians, Palestianians and your own people, what counts is the cash in the bank every year... State Cynism?). Anyway, as you can see in the graph, potentially they just have taken on about half of the planet...  >:(

I expected the apologists to come out, this is normal in those cases where Israel is involved (hey, Israel just cleared the ships of all passengers, what is your bet they will - in a few days - thriumphally present a bunch of arms they found "after a thorough search" on the ships? El Mundo journalists have reported repeatedly before that they tried to introduce arms on captured boats in other occasions... The "terrorists" on board included e.g. writer Henning Mankell, Nobel Prize Lairead Corrigan-Maguire, 60 journalists from all over the world, etc...), but really: How can the international community tolerate whomever to freely and without consequences bomb, attack and kidnap at will in the Med, the heart of Europe? Are we all blind? This is a bit like South Africa during Apartheid, or Spain during Franco dictatorship, nothing happens despite clear infractions on everything we as soldiers have been or are fighting for, e.g. in Iraq, Astan or Somalia. And it works: Like the UN, NATO avoided in an extraordinary session invoked by the Turks to condemn the Israeli use of force directly...

This has to end, is my take. Fast. A limit has been surpassed, both as German and Spaniard this has been an attack on my homeland. And it seems Tuna is higher valued by the EU than the lives of European citizens, the first gets all states protection instantly.

First steps from my POV would include the revocation of all preferential treaties, recalling of ambassadors and a clear and outspoken isolation of this rouge state and his politicians, even the Iranian Mr. Afterdinnerjacket looks smooth against this bunch of corrupts.

Sorry, it is getting late, working over 4 hours now on that post, need to turn in, now I am glad I started with the summary...

Rattler

Just imagine that you do not live in a free country like ours but in Israel.
A country where every Arab or Palestinian can become a danger to you and your loved ones.
The news every week is full with incidents.
The rockets continue to be fired by Hamas and delivered by Iran.
We simply cannot judge them, for Israel there cannot be any sign of weakness against Palestines anymore, nor can they afford to give away presents.
The Palestinians kept on going with acts of terrorism even after all the steps Israel took to please them.
Remember very carefull Islam doesnt give you anything, it takes and it concurs.
Untill you are either dead or muslem.
Israel doesnt have the room anymore to be polite.

When Israel acts outside the bounds of international law, yes we can. Their trials and tribulations do not relieve them of their responsibilities to the rest of the world community. The world took pity on the Jews after WW2 and gave them a country in the middle of a Hornet's nest, and they have been given a lot of leeway over the years because of this. However, they have made the mistake of ignoring the UN resolutions (as well as the UN Charter) to remove themselves from the occupied lands and allow the return of refugees. Instead, they have settled in the occupied lands, removing the rightful residents and flaunting their will in the face of world condemnation of these actions. They insist on  following the lead of their former masters and kill 10 for every Israeli killed. It wasn't right when the Germans were doing it, it isn't right now.

The world is changing, and where Israel once had the backing of many countries in the world (as well as myself), they have now worn out their patience and are finding themselves more isolated than ever.

Jody,

To be honoust, I really dont care if they need the worlds approval.
They fight for survival nothing more nothing less.

Israel gave back ground to the Palestinians, did that ease the relations?
No, still every day people are in shelters because rockets are being fired on Israeli towns.
Israel started talks with Fatah, what happened.... Fatah was removed with violence by Hamas from Gaza.
Did anyone mourne?
Does anyone mourne about the suppressed Palestinians living under Hamas rule?
If you give moslemsbased terrorgroups like that a finger they will cutt of your arm as well with it.
They are tought by the Hadith to fight and kill all nonbelievers( including you and me) and to take their land untill all are true believers.
Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel.
Israel could and can only act against them for security measures to protect its people, the arab world knew and know they will eventually lose the support.
But that doesnt matter anymore, because Israels army doesnt need the west anymore.

And on a sidenote, have you ever thought about from which country the Israelis get their oil?

A two state option is a good one but only worth anything if the Palestinian terrorgroups are disbanded and the Arab world recognizes Israel, rejecting their manifests of destroying Israel.
Unitll that happens I hold my breath and support my fellow jews.

Do not mistake my anger at the intransigence of Israel, as support for Islamic Jihad. On the contrary, as an American, under siege by the same Islamic radicals as would see Israel fall, I understand what defense means. However it seems that this blatant disregard for international law is counter productive, and only hurts their cause. When Israel pounded their adversaries in 67, I cheered them on. Some 40 years later, I am not so readily willing to do the same. And it is because of their arrogance. Much as the world disliked the arrogance of America under Bush's admin (myself included), I find myself drawing my support away from Israel for the same reasons. Please also remember, I take issue with Israeli policy, not Judaism, as all Israeli are not Jews. I recognize that my Gentile upbringing leaves a great vacuum for understanding the plight of the Jewish people throughout history, never the less, I have tried to understand and empathize as best I can. I do not take solace in the fact that my respect for Israel is on the wane.

Jody,

I cant and wont blame you for your thoughts, after all thats why we have freedom of speech.
However it are the same people we fight against who do not understand that freedom.........

1) How many successful countries are there living in isolation?
2) How much oil does it take to make a tank?

More importantly if Israel doesn't need the West anymore should the West perhaps be concentrating on courting the more moderate Muslim worlds support I am sure that the Egyptians wouldn't say no to taking the yearly American contribution to Israel I can't say that the if the USA gave up on Israel their popularity wouldn't go up in the Muslim world.

The simple reality is that despite the arrogance involved in statements about "not needing anyone" and "not caring about world opinion" Israel does need the rest of the world even if it is only for trade and there is not one nation on the face of the Earth that can survive on its own.

Sure Monty,

We can support the muslimes, let them eliminate Israel.
Than who will be next ?
I make a list for you... Israel, USA, Europe.

I suggest you already buy a nice set of burkas for your wife.

So we should let Israel eliminate the Muslims?
We should accept the arguments of "right of self-defense" justify any actions any time anywhere?

If so where does it stop, North Korea sinks a South Korean ship in "self defense, Iran builds nukes but thats fine they have a right to defend themselves.  I have to admit I really don't care how the Israeli/Palestinian thing turns out any more because personally I find them as bad as each other.

Not all muslems, only the terrorgroups.
Once they are gone and other Arab states recognize Israel instead of wanting to destroy it, only than can the talks start to negotiate a two state option.

You still haven't answered questions posed though, how can the West pressure China on human rights or North Korea/Iran on nuclear weapons while turning a blind eye nations we deem "friendly" who are no better without being a giant bunch of hypocrites?

In the end Israel landed on a ship in International waters and killed 9 of its passengers and crew in the process for no reason what so ever especially when the commandos they dropped on the boat said "We did not expect such resistance from the group's activists as we were talking about a humanitarian aid group," one unnamed naval lieutenant told Israel's Army Radio."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics)

That simple statement alone says that they used disproportionate force to that required to do the job which is a breach of the rules regarding the mission they undertook.

The simple reality is that Israel could simply have insisted on inspecting the ships and cargo before it entered the blockade zone and escorted to the zone and they would not have walked away with the giant PR nightmare they have now everybody would have been happy, had the flotilla refused the requests then Israel could have carried out its mission without any recriminations.  But no, shoot first and blame the victims later policy seems to still prevail.

Stoffel,

I hope you will understand that I write the following with all due respect both for the suffering the Jews went through over the centuries and WWII through the atrocities my people commited as well (and especially) to you whom I know in person.

This said, I think you have gone blind on the real issues.

Let me just state a few facts (I have to make a selection at this hour of the night/morning: You adressed so many, most have almost no connection to the current atrocity but should be covered in another thread), and as I have come to know you personally as a sincere, intelligent and trained person with a sure sense for inustice I guess you will soon see where you are going wrong wrong:

1. We are not talking the Palestinian/Israeli issue here, neither the (probably, but questionable) legitimate self defense against rockets. We are talking about a deliberate attack on an unarmed convoy (no difference actually if it had been armed) intending to bring wheel chairs and food to bloquaded Gaza (I understand this might be felt to be a provocation for Israel, but, please, check your own words below to see what I am basing my assessment on in detail: I just quoted the sentences/phrases I have problems with, assume I go along with the others).

2. Once we are clear that we are talking/judging this attack and not the general political spectrum (though of course it provides the background) let me still just defuse your stance on the hypothesis that we should indeed talk about it: Even in this case we would have to recognize that we cannot use the same argument once in favor and in another case in contra under the same circumstances, anything else would be intellectually dishonest and make any discussion obsolete as we entered a "religious" space where "belief" superseeds analysis. As military we have learned to analyze, let us keep at it and not use different measures for same/similar facts.

One example is your "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less" argument to explain the breach of law of this attack. Please NOTE that you yourself have rejected this argument over and over again in the Somali pirate discussion when someone used it to describe the situation of the guys there who have been deprived by us from their fishing grounds through big trawlers and contamination (read: Illegal duping of waste) in their territorial waters. Same thing, in both cases it is no excuse for breaking the law or even less for atrocities.

In this respect some more argumets that are no arguments stand out:

- "Rockets on Israeli towns"? No, on *illegal* Jewish (not Israel) settlements. Does not make it any better, but lets keep the facts straight anyway.

- "We simply cannot judge them"? No, we can and we should. Israel is a state as any other and no exception (however differently they might see it or feel), if I accept that my German or Spanish or your Netherlands state actions are open for judgement, for them the applies same rule.

- "Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel". No: Israel has successfully torpedoed every intent of reconciliation between the ethnic groups over 60+ years. They have never accepted any ruling of whatever body, they are (illegally under int law!) bloquading an area that they gave jurisdiction up on when they had to retreat to public pressure after having gained it illegally, etc. Just look at the (terrorist? Al Quaida?) member of Knesset member whow was onboard the convoy (!) who was assaulted !!In parlament!! by an ultra right yesterday and deemed "traitor", spat on, etc. Does this not recall you of other ultra rights thaat have occupied your country and where it took years and years to liberate us from the menace?

3. Ignoring 2) let us get back to the true issue we are discussing here, the attack on the convoy (NOT the attacks on Israel):

Today we had the Spanish passengers finally back, and could hear (they were separated, so they spoke at different spots (Turkey, Spain, Egypt), different times and different interests: One is a NGO member, two were journalists: Of the latter one from "El Mundo" (not your left or liberal paper really), the other from "Telesur". I will append a (pro Israel) article of the "El Mundo" guy from the Gaza campagin last year so you can see he is without doubt to be taken seriously with his observations.

All three related the same, and it is shocking just to hear it and I guess even you will see why we non-Israelis are outraged (again), and from their stance and personal reputation I believe them (at least more as the Israeli state propaganda):

a) all stated clearly that the ships were fired on with 203s (NGO lady said fragmentation grenades) *before* the abseiling. All three independently stated that the captain over megaphone ordered white flags to be raised after the first shots from the distance and that the order was complied with.
b) all three seperately stated that they had seen several corpses and "lots of blood" on the upper deck when the helos were not even close and that hte pasenges only after this act of terrorism on the open sea resorted to organizing some kind of self defense (as you said - and please honor the argument as it is yours- : "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less")
c) alll three related "execution" style of killing of the commandos, especially on photographers (as they reported they saw several incidents where a commando pressed the pistol to the forhead of a photographer and just "executed him", the lady mentioned even unarmed and white flag waving people shot from short distance)
d) all three related that there were many more deads than reported: According to them they witnessed commandos throwing "a lot" of corpses overboard, their estimate varies between 14 nd 20 dead, 60+ partially severely injured
e) the telesur journalist said that he and others had grabbed the incident on mobile phones and cameras, the commandos first confiscated all of those
f) the "El Mundo" journalist telated that he knew of some videos that were not fetched by the Israelis by now aand would come out soon as proof for his relation.
g) all three related that the convoy *had* changed course on request and was travelling north parrallel to the coast when attacked in international waters

Stoffel, as the mil minded person you are, have you asked yourself really how anybody can support such action cold blooded? Why they get away with it finding yourself suppporting  it even? Who gains? Who gains? Think twice, please!

Why a Turkish ship?  Are the Israelis stupid?

Personally I do not think so. Their forces (and "Shayetet 13" more so) are expertly trined and professional, Mossad and Shin Bet can provide any analysis you can expect from a well functioning service, so I guess they kenw about the consequences.

If you recall our MBXes (especially Global Thunder) you will have realized that given a goaal and the means you are able to organize anything, ignoring whatever the law says if ir serves your purpose ("In war and lover everything is allowed").

Now, I find it interesting that a Turkish ship should be attacked just after the Turks agreed (on pressure of the EU and aginst behement protests of the Israelis) to serve Iran with enriched uranium to desvalidate their argument that they needed to enrich themselves (i.e. to make the probability of a nuke aimed against Israel less probable). I would not think it out of bounds that the Israeli government decided to pay them bck with a serious "touch of attention".

When I looked up the last years article of the "El Mundo" journalist (Salvador Sostres: "7 things I am fed up hearing people say about Israel") for me one paragraph stuck out and I felt personally addressed:



That is true, at least for me. I have seen myself dragged along again and again going irate but not taking consequences. A bit the same what we did with ETA here in Spain when we called them even into the ´80s "the separatist organization ETA" when talking aoubt the Hypercor massacre and only after ´85 changed deliberately into calling them "the Terrorist Group ETA" (anglosaxon papers, yahoo and google still today - despite the "official" definition after S11 of terrorist groups including them - refer to them under the first paraphrase).

Not anymore.

Fed up with this last deliberate atrocity I from now on will refer to the current Israeli government as the "Terrorist Government of Israel" on all my websites and discussion posts, and I feel backed up by any definition of terrorism I have been able to find.

And, should the IHH make their announcement true of assembling 200 ships to go to bring humanitarian aide to Gaza next time (what willl Israel do then? Hit them with a nuke? Would you, Soffel, still think this would be ok?) I am sincerely contemplating to be part of this effort.

And should I get killed and later be dubbed "an Al Quaeda" member I expect you to come to my tomb and tell me straight to my face that we who detest terrorism have been rightfully killed by an Israeli government in "self defense".

Rattler

APPENDIX: The (cudely) translated pro-Israel article by Salvador Sostre in "El Mundo", original: http://safed-tzfat.blogspot.com/2010/06/siete-topicos-contra-israel-salvador.html (http://safed-tzfat.blogspot.com/2010/06/siete-topicos-contra-israel-salvador.html)






 

Matt,

My opinion is just what it is, my opinion.
I dont blame you for yours, dont blame me for mine.
I see it as I see it, nothing will change that.

Henk

I think it's when we think like that we suddenly find ourselves having done things that we regret for the rest of our lives.

I am not sure I understand exactly what you want to say in this context, 13th, but the phrase in itself is sure a feeling I understand and share.

Rattler

and again  hdbng

BBC News - Israel diverts Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie to Ashdod (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm#id10240000/10245800/10245813)




"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," Mr Netanyahu's office quoted him as saying.
a ship of hate with terrorists onboard all armed with kitchen knives? No bombs? No suicide attempts?

2 Belgian women on a boarded ship also got home yesterday, luckily in good health.
They said it was all very agressive altough nobody on their ship resisted.

read also another post on WaT about Rachel Corrie, the woman who was honoured by naming the ship after her: http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wats-21st-century-zoo/wat-zoo-exhibit-15-rachel-corrie/ (http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wats-21st-century-zoo/wat-zoo-exhibit-15-rachel-corrie/)

About the discussion what countries are "bad" and which ones not: only when the US government says so a country gets listed on the 'axis of evil'-list.
And we all know Israel will never get on that black list!

Why aren't there any military ships protecting these vessels during their trips in international waters? Unarmed ships in international waters?

Good idea actually, pirates and terrorists all about in the MED since a few days.

Rattler

Well this just gets better by the day, only Israel can make Iran look like the good guys in this mess.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy/print (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy/print)

Muhahahahahahaha  :D

Iranian navy, wow I am impressed, that would bring fear to Israels servicemen and women.
And I dont think Israel will be either ;)
Let them come, so we can finish the job.
Something a lot of officers in the US army are eager to do for a decade or 3 now. hatsoff

Really who is "We" and what does the US have to do in this?

As a more neutral country I am hoping the entire region decides to blow itself up because I really don't like any of them, maybe a huge middle eastern mushroom cloud on a day with the wind blowing toward Somalia and Central Africa would actually do the civilised world a great service, no more terrorism, no more Palestine/Israeli conflict, the small nuclear winter will solve global warming and we get rid of the bulk of world hunger and pirates in one hit.

Aren't the Russians and Yanks looking to downsize their nuclear pile, this may be just the method to achieve that as well.

Anyway I am not entirely sure Israel is up for this type of war as neither have the ability to really get at each other in a conventional way and if you back that with declining popularity in the nations around Israel I am not sure this would be a war Israel can win, for example the current Egyptian military is not the same bumbling bunch of camel jockeys they were in 1973 they are now a fairly well trained and equipped force.

Using the great features of WaT (you can really hit "quote" in different messages and they will end up in *one* reply box for you :) )let me answer the two of you:


Sorry, Stoffel, but by underestimating your enemy you have lost half the war already.

The Iranian Navy is well trained, well equipped, well organized, has won against the (in their time) mighty Iraq, and are dedicated and focussed. Nothing to ridicule there: They are probably lacking tech and (US provided) INTEL level compared to Israel, but I would not for one second doubt their crews, mariners and soldiers professionalism, they are a regional power as well as Israel is.


Monty, you have something there, though I sincerely hope it would not come to that, the "collateral" damage would be too much from my POV.

OTOH, now that the terrorist government of Israel has decided to turn down the offer of an independent investigation into the issue (they claim the investigation needs to be "responsible" whatever that means: The proposed comission would have been led by a NZ maritime law specialist, the team would haxe consisted of Brits, Germans, US and and an Asian/African body, with both a Turkey and Israel member aboard), at least Spain has reacted recognizing them on the same level as the terrorist organisation ETA, finally:

Today Israel was banned by the organizers to take part in a big international manifestation for civil rights in Madrid with the exact words we here have come to use for ETA: "Nobody who does not condemn the use of violence for political goals can take part in a demonstration for democratic and civil rights on Madrid territory".



Finally it seems (at least city) governments are starting to get sensible... It really is time we call them openly what they are: State terrorists.

Of cause, and as expected, Israels state terrorism apologetic ambassador calls this an "antisemite" move and claims "discrimination and exclusion for religious motives":

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20100608/carroza-gay-israeli-no-participara-marcha-del-orgullo-madrid-ataque-a-flotilla/334697.shtml (http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20100608/carroza-gay-israeli-no-participara-marcha-del-orgullo-madrid-ataque-a-flotilla/334697.shtml)

Rattler

I don't see why, how many billions of dollars does the West spend propping up the Israeli military and Government so they can kill Palestinians, how many billions do we then spend in food and medicine to the Palestinians so that can provide targets for the Israelis, how many billions do we spend spying on Iran, how many billions do we spend sending food and aid to Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. etc., how many billions do we spend keeping navies on patrol for pirates and then how much is counter terrorism costing us every day in our daily lives (embarkation and importation security etc.)?

All this money is spent on basket case countries none of which will amount to anything useful no matter how much money we send them, the fact is that if Israel wasn't there Palestinians would be killing each other as they have done for thousands of years, Israel cant afford peace in the region as they would be bankrupt in week so they are happily stirring things up every time it gets quiet in the region and there is no amount of money on earth that will fix the likes of Somalia.

So the answer is simple get rid of the area nuke the lot and spend all that aid money on feeding and improving the lot of our own nations, I am tired of watching the story of little Gupta growing up on the mean streets of Delhi, $1 dollar a day buys him inoculations, education and a meal, meanwhile the Indian military has just purchased half a dozen carriers and the aircraft for them.

At some point this nonsense has to end or we will all be dragged down to their level.

Monty,

Read Military technology april issue.
It deals with certain( secret) plans for an attack on Iran.
There is plenty of evidence that large groups of highranking officers and CIA members would like to attack Iran.
Wouldnt it be handy for them if Iranian ships enter Israeli territory.....

And regarding your statement of Israel killing Palestinians....... there have been several rebellions in th e80 s and 90s in syria and egypt.
Now if Israel kills some Palestinians the worlkd is in shock. But if Syria destroys an entire town with artillery and tanks and kill 100000 people including 40000 women and children you hear nothing about it...strange?
By the way why should Israel negotiate about peace if all Islamic countries and terroristgroups  have written down they will destroy Israel?

What makes you so sure America will come to the aid of Israel in anything more than symbolic way, they are already pretty well tied up with their own wars of ideology and what better way for them to back out of any commitments than saying that attacking foreign warships escorting aid ships in International waters is not a good enough reason for us to get involved?



So because Syria kills people that some how justifies Israel doing it?
You seem to assume I support Syria or Iran or any of these other giant crap holes of religious self-righteousness the fact is I don't like any of them hence the reason I couldn't care less whether Israel wipes out Iran or vice versa as in the end its just one less bunch of intolerant a-holes on the face of the earth.
Don't assume I believe Israel is worse than Hamas or Hezbollah I just do not believe they are any better.



Well that is simple because if they do not find a way to co-exist they will eventually destroy each other.

Interestingly not much has been added to this thrad since I got banned by my provider, I will change this over the weekend, because a lot has happened, including the weakining of the blockade from the Israeli side, a necessary and much apreciated move world wide.

Rattler

sorry, but when people start calling me names or accuse me of being prominded to terrible political-historical inspired movements I quit....I've always been respectful in discussions....I'm not pro or against anything....I only discuss facts...things that happen(ed)..

why? not to get my 'right' but to listen to other opinions....to LEARN

but it seems that everytime 'Israel' or 'Judaism' comes into a discussion people must take sides and start another battle

Correct.

Its bad for the site.
Topics like these will always add a lot of fuel to hatred reactions, which is a thing we should avoid.

What Really Happened In The Middle East (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09pmTh64vD8#normal)

Listen and watch this small doc, it contains a lot of things people tend to forget when dealing with the cruel Israelis.

The purpose of these discussions is to express our opinions and to learn from our brethren. And while I may be in opposition to your position, I still maintain the utmost respect for the cadre of contributors to this site (albeit one) and mean no disrespect ever. While I understand the desire to stay away from controversy, I think avoidance limits the depth of  the site. But then again, I am a guest here and shall defer to the powers that be.

A solution might be a two state option.
I will be the first to condemn Israel if they do not reply...but in order for that to happen several things have to be done first.

1) All Palestinian terrorgroups should be dismantled and their arms and rockets destroyed. ( both sides should not ask for criminal charges, however , very bad criminals/terrorists should not be alowed to get any governmental function)
2) A Palestinian police force backed up by UN personell to guard the borders.
3) all Arab states should recognize Israel and remove the chapters to destroy Israel.

Only if these 3 demands are fullfilled there is a chance of peace.
For the Arab states this would not be hard to do, so why wont they?

Because they envy Israel and want its wealth and resources?
Or is it because Israel has something that Arab countries fear, like freedom and democracy?

In some ways I think this is one aspect of the problem. However, one must not disregard the way Israel was formed as adding to the mix. The formation of Israel was forced down the throats of those in the region, partly because of the fatigue generated by the Jewish terrorists upon the British occupiers, weary of war after WW2, and the worldwide guilt associated with having allowed the Holocaust to occur in the first place. The propensity for the powers that be, to ignore the ethnic & cultural borders present at the time, and to draw boundaries without considering the same (ex: the Kurds, the Vietnamese) have led to many of the current conflicts.




While I hope this is in fact true, Im afraid there are hard heads in the region that will never accept Israel (ex: Iran).

I am all with FacMan here, and I also think we should discuss this once and for all so that everybody knows where he stands and can make his decisions in respect. I am tired of seeing the same arguments repeated over and over again as to whether having a political forum on a military site harms or helps the issue, I feel a decision would help all sides (whether they like it or not). Either from top down or maybe through a poll, I would sincerely ask the powers in place to let us know what it will and should be.

My reasoning (and I know I am repeating myself here, but only partially: FacMan gave me a new insight) is basically that we live on a planet moved by politics, whether we like it or not, and that this background imposes on us a lot of actions and reactions that we can only treat appropriately when being conscious about the fact. This thought alone makes me feel that the discussion not only of the "how" but also of the "why" for each topic does not shame a military site at all, even if most other military sites think the other way round (but even there I have never heard Nazi Ideology should not be discussed for understanding broader issues which makes me suspect that there is some kind of selective measure on the table when it e.g. comes to Israael or other current conflicts). What is more, who does not want to read political opinons can easily stay out of the respective form if he does not want to take heat for any views he has on the reasons for some conflicts.

With FacMans input I additionally feel tht I personally am way more disposed to accept a political stance or opinion from a person who is (or was) into soldiering than from a person not member of this special family: Brethren, as FacMan called it: I *know*, e.g.,  that there are great Taliban soldiers out there as well that deserve all due respect from a family member and I would sincerely welcome their view on things here as I do Stoffel´s or MadRussian´s.

I have no problem with other soldiers having a different view on things than myself, I even just because of the fact that they stand where they stand take them more serious than I normally would, lets say, in a bar discussion. OTOH I expect the same from them. If someone really feels he needs to leave WaT because a certain group of (ex) soldiers (!) expresses and opinion  he cannot share, my take is: So be it. Being aable to accept the existance of and different views on life (and war) is part of an soldiers stand from my POV.

We lose members because of having a political forum? Maybe. ... But we also might gain members because of having it: I personally find a site where we can listen to a Vietcong view of the war with the same respect for a soldier as to an US soldier POV much more interesting than others where none or only one "historically/politically" correct view is "offically" allowed.

My 2c,

Rattler

I think this is a pipe dream at best, the area is not big enough to support two functioning nations, there is no way in hell that a Palestinian state can function when it is made up half a dozen scattered bits of land and if the Palestinian state can not function properly then there will never be stability or peace.

So:
1. More than likely would happen with any agreement.
2. It would have to be a UN force comprised almost entirely of troops from Muslim nations as anything else would cause friction.
3. Not relevant to anything, International relations have to be negotiated between individual countries and should have nothing to do with any potential Palestinian agreement.

Oh.

There is plenty of room, remember where the biggest part of Palestina should be?

Jordan.......unfortunately everybody tends to forget that everytime.

So you idea of a 2 state solution is to move Palestinians to Jordan?

Somehow I think that solution is already dead but to be blunt that has been the cornerstone of Palestinian/Israeli "peace" negotiations for years where both sides make unrealistic proposals knowing that the other side can not accept them so life goes on as usual.

The funny thing in all of this is that the only genuinely viable option for a Palestinian state and one that gives you all three of your demands is the Hamas proposal (who knew those crazy bastards would make sense) and that was a return to the 1967 borders but we all know that wont happen until Israel is pushed back beyond those borders (then they will look attractive).

But currently Israel is still trying to create peace on their terms through military means and the Palestinians are still happy to make peace by destroying Israel and until both sides realise they are not going to get everything they want neither side will get anything more than death and destruction.

From a Western perspective there is an easy fix, stop funding both of them blockade the entire area nothing in and nothing out when they are both at the point that they can no longer fight then they will reach peace on equal terms.

as forum owner and admin I said from day 1 (also see our 'rules) that ALL subjects should be discussable with certain limits...mainly respect for the issue and other members.

If/when we should avoid or ban all subjects that are 'political' based we'll end with only a 'lounge' forum....

Every single war and conflict has been politicaly based, politicians started them, politicians kept them going on and finally they pulled the plug (money) out.
Not only war/conflict subjects are politically based but who buys weapons? Who invests money into arms factories? Politicians! So should we delete the 'equipment' boards also?

I feel that the start of banning will be easy but where does it stop?

We start with 'Israel' but where do we stop? What if an American citizen shows up and feels discussing the Vietnam war is a political discussion and should be banned?

What if I, as Belgian citizen, would have a problem discussing the Belgian history in WWI and WWII? In both cases politics and royals were involved and did not always perform as they should!

Ofcourse, and stated in the rules, we don't allow propaganda for extreme parties such as Nazism, SS or/and other fanatics but that doesn't mean they can't be discussed!

Couple of days ago I saw a terryfying movie where a young muslima was thrown out of the US because she tried to discuss 9/11 in her classroom and on forums. Yes, it's only a movie but this also shows that 'discussing' subjects is a privilige, a positive result of democracy. And is that not the main fundation of our lives? Freedom of speech? Democracy?

And yes, even with this statement I just wrote I'm awaiting reactions but that's why I started a forum in the first place!

We have a unique chance here since, altough we are few, we have a good mixture with soldiers, ex-soldiers, civilians from countries all over the world.

We MUST be grateful we have the opportunity to discuss all subjects amongs ourselves, lots of people would/are/will be jealous we can/do!

Koen!   hatsoff