Wow, what a headline! (Actually, would have liked to post it to "The Military" - where I think it belongs - but thought better, enough heat surely coming in after this post anyway)...

Seriously, I think/believe it is one of the most serious topics that soldiers from all angles are fighting with, all of us are consoled by the promise of impunity on the other side of life (just the Spanish example, but it is the same for any nation/religion, seems it is a natural part of the soldier´s job)...

Check this vid (one of the most emotional pieces I know which drives me to tears, but why is that so if GOD *prohibits* to kill?? Am I insane? Or is the Muslim insane believing the same just at reverse?): "Death is not the End" - Hommage to the soldiers that gave their live for GOD and Spain (I have a translation up on this forum elsewhere, but here the pix say it all):

LA MUERTE NO ES EL FINAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntt5sck27Yc#normal)

Or, let us take the example of myself: Created in a normal (protestant) environment, both my culturally condiditoned as well as my sentimentally conditioned ethics revolve around those 4 points as a soldier: I *do* understand (as I have read the Coran and other holy books) ideas from the other side, but, inevitably (as those ENY solds!) am falling for my personal upbringing, i.e. "christian" culture. What do my christian briefs tell me?:

"Though shall not kill" (just to mention one, but the one that soldiers have to live with and make their peace with).

In Koran, in Budhism, Hinduism, The Tora, in almost all religions, it comes down to the same: Killing is forbidden, by God (no exceptions mentioned in any religion AFAIK).

Why do we soldiers train to and then, later, exercise kill (and even in *name of* religion, e.g. our bishops "benedict" arms??), one of the mysteries I never have been able to solve (agnostic myself), when my own book of rules (Bible in my case) prohibits it, and why can we be even *proud* of "standing there" doing it (though I am, hence the dilemma!)?

Today, with my age, I cannot see it anymore, but I remember that as youngster I (seemingly) understood it: There are so (too) many excuses!;

"Oh, but we are not killing for pleasure, we are defending (ourselves/religion/culture/nation/beliefs)!"

"The others do not stick to our book, why should we?"

"We are not allowed to kill by God? Have to turn the other cheek? But what, if it´s my son killed? I am not Hiob, after all, and my sins are forgiven!"

"Infidels are not mentioned, let us start a crusade!"

In this context I want - as I am leaving this forum for some time - to present to you an interesting discourse, by Daniel Dennett, a philospher and physicist (and from my POV a profound thinker and great person), held when he was presented with the "Richard Dawkins Award" in 2007, during the Atheist Alliance International Convention.

In all my life time (and I am not an atheist by definition!) nobody ever has detailed so impressively why we believe, why we want to belive, why we need to believe and what the consequences are, and what the "guilt" idea means for us, from a totally rational POV (though I am not along with the conclusions in total), a true thinker the way I think we soldiers need to start dissecting our motives and the things that speed/slow us.

Let me start with the elogy that goes with every award, by Mr. Dawkings himself, and then reproduce Mr. Dennets discourse (for our rather superficial readers, do *not* go on from here if you cannot spare or concentrate for an hour to listen to arguments on such a serious subject, that is about the time this post will require from you from here onwards - intentionally parted in two sections...). For me, these questions Daniel Dennett is discussing are existentially serious, have been part of the center of my life, and I would mind hearing stupid or uneducated comments, if you will allow me a personal plea.

I would really be interested to hear comments from (alphabetical order) FACMan, Jily, Koen, MontyB and Solideo when I come back. Myself, I am intrigued and reflecting (again) right now (I am slow, sorry).

Rattler

Elogy for Dan Dennett when awarded the "Richard Dawkins Award", 2007, by Mr Dawkins himself:




And, from my POV, the human mind is just another animal mind...:

Discourse about "Faith, Belief and The Concept of a God" on the same occasion, by Daniel Dennett

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (1/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7iANFTp5d4#normal)

Part 2 (the most impacting IMHO - if you heard part 1, of cause...):

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (2/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxaCtPUZeNc#normal)

(Continued in next post, R.)

Continued from previous post (scroll up one, this part alone won´t tell you anything, R.):

Part 3

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (3/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfHRyfnp-V8#normal)

Part 4:

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (4/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8KsBFCZJE#normal)

Part 5:

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (5/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMC626fBDEc#normal)

Part 6 (due to limits, just the linky)

Daniel Dennett' speech @Atheist Alliance International (6/6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2HPGned0KY#normal)

Rattler

not for today, will look into it this weekend (remind me if/when I forget)

As Dan stated, remember: "Atheism is a chick magnet!"  :D

And Mount Everest exists, no?

 ;D

Rattler

bumping, as nobody replied.

Is this not interesting for soldiers?

Just curious,

Rattler

Is this not interesting for soldiers?

I once heard that there are no atheists in foxholes. Now that may or may not be true (sounds like someone pushing their own beliefs), however,  I know personally that there are many, many blasphemers in foxholes...*raises hand*

Personally, while never having experienced combat when serving, when I was under (mortar) fire as journo later I straightforward wet my pants... but it did not make me religious (NOTE: I am not an atheist, just an agnostic).

Neither did my other close-to-death experiences like some car accidents, small plane crashes and other stuff I am reluctant to tell) that I experienced make me religious.

Not even wading through the mess of a house that had crumbled in a gas explosion when I was just a young photogrpher and taking pictures of the 4 kids they unearthed had that effect.

The discourse this gentleman delivers, from my POV seems well thought, educated and sensible (but again, as feeling truly -cowardly?- agnostic, it is also *just* that).

I agree, there is no sensible reason to believe in god at all, neithr from what we see, nor from what we behave like, but then, there is a wish to do so sometimes, no (we agnostics suffer from lack of that soothing/helping side of belief)?

Rattler

I tend to believe religion starts to take effect only once people have lost faith in their own ability to rectify a situation, I am an agnostic bordering atheism the logical side of me tells me there is no god yet the scientific side of me says that I can not discount anything without proof.

Nothing in my limited military experience tempted me toward religion but I have dealt with a large number of WW2, Korea and Vietnam veterans and this has led me to believe that the maxim "there are no atheists in foxholes" is horribly inaccurate to the point that I have started to believe combat creates more atheists than anything else.
   

Kinda the point I was trying to make. My religious convictions were unable to withstand the horror of my experience. If there in fact is a God, I cant wait to give him a piece of my mind in person, even though as he is supposedly omniscient, he already heard my opinion of his creation, from my foxhole.

This seems to be a very common opinion in the people I have spoken to, I know for a fact that prior to WW2 and Korea my father and uncles went to church and were active in church circles and afterwards they were confirmed atheists and never went near a church again and in some cases became rather hostile towards religion I also found it interesting that my brother who served with New Zealand forces in Vietnam went exactly the same way.

I was somewhat fortunate to have never had to face the same trials as my service was all within New Zealand.

Reminded.

Rattler

I think God exists in a form that we cannot come even close to comprehending.
Speaking of which, I don't really trust the Bible so much because it's obviously been tampered with many times in its lifetime, entire books removed, edited etc., according to the needs of the authorities.
There has always been a link with the spiritual world in a variety of cultures around the world and I don't think it can be totally discounted.  Things we will never really understand I suppose.

I can't even comprehend math.
So I don't expect myself to comprehend God.

Bumper sticker seen yesterday...seems appropriate for this thread...


"God is too big to fit within one religion"